Comic formats & pricing

[Thon]

The background for this thread are the alternative comic formats presented by Fernando, Roberts & Dof recently.
We have seen a longer (60p) comic, Cheerleaders 9 (Fernando), for a higher price (€25), and then two shorter (25p) releases, Twins 5 (Fernando) & Indefinite Detention (Roberts), for lower price (€13). The standard Dof comic length and price is 40 pages for €20.

Do you want to see longer, shorter, normal, 3D animation, page by page, quicker releases. Please share your thoughts!

[Thon]

This post is moved from the Fernando forum (Twins5 was the first shortened & low priced release).
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If this short format is how it's gonna be in the future, I'll happily take what I can get from Fernando.

It can be argued, that this was just an episode in a longer narrative, the whole Twins-series, so in that sense I'm happy as it continues the story and develops the characters and sub plots. I could well see a future of Fernando alternating between ongoing stories like DSI, Twins, SW and Cheerleaders by publishing short episodes of each as inspiration comes along. Even building on older but already established stories like the Invaders could be expanded in this way.

But if there's an alternative, I still would prefer a full comic. And if it means waiting much longer, I'll happily wait for that. I've got nothing against the content, it was awesome in many regards, but I do like a longer episode.

Now to something that's worrying me with this shorter format;
If you would like to go from selling complete comics issue by issue, as Fernando/Dof does now, to a subscription delivery via a pay-site with a monthly member fee, you've got to deliver a [somewhat steady] flow of material. Going from releasing full comics to short episodes could be a step in that direction.

As I remember it, Fernado has hinted at a desire to switch to a subscription model with his own pay-site.
With that in mind, the comparison with Roberts is interesting.

Gary has a pay-site (run/co-hosted by Dofantasy in some way) where he produces more than just comics. But agreed, it does often take him 6 months or more to produce a full comic. He/they charges €24.95 per month (could be lowered to €49.95 per 3 months if you opt for a longer package), so if you're a paying member of his site, you pay something like €150 for a new comic at the current 3-5 page a month rate.

An other Dof artist, Cagri, also has his own pay-site, also in some collaboration with Dof, with the same fee structure. Like Roberts, Cagri takes months to release a complete comic, typically 8-10 months. But then he also runs multiple comics in parallel, often 4 to 6, issuing 3-4 pages per comic each month. For a years worth, €200-300, you get something like 4-6 complete comics and 2-4 half made. So lets say 7 on average. That means you pay something like €28 for a new comic.

Assuming you're a long time member/fan who already have all of the artist's old work, compared to the €19.95 charged by Dof for a full comic, these prises aren't very tempting.

For a newbie who want to dive into the world of Robert's wonderfully perverted art, it could be money well spent for the first month(s) I guess. But paying €100-150 for a comic is a no-go.

Dearest Roberts and Cagri, if you read this and find any of the facts wrong, please correct me. But bear in mind, I've written this based on the information obtainable from your sites (and also after having been a paying member of Cagri's site, some years back). If you offer any additional stuff for the membership fee, you might consider making that a bit clearer on the preview pages of those sites.

Also, if anyone takes this as mischief and plotting against Fernando, Cagri, Roberts and/or Dof? Well, all I can say about that is: I'm a fan and loyal paying customer since many many years now. I certainly would like to be able to purchase these comics in the future. But it would also be nice to know whats going on. Please try to do some communication. Then maybe misunderstandings won't happen. This is my honest assessment of what I foresee, not a plan to take down either Fernando, Cagri, Roberts or Dof.

[ROBERTS]

No problems...relax.
You are seeing a sort of experimentation on our part..well, at least on MY part..
If I had complete control, as I once did when the US Banks allowed me to run my OWN business online, I would price things a lot lower. My website at BoundNaked.com was never more than $14.95/month..which is around 10-12Euro I think. Pretty reasonable in this day of $34.95 websites. I have a site in the planning stage that will sell at $9.95 USD.
Fernando's comic was the first to post as a 25 pg short format..I saw this as a positive idea and talked to Begonia about it, so we decided to do it with 'Indefinite Detention". we will see if the concept holds any validity with our sales numbers and feedback from you guys..
The really positive thing on this with me, is there's not going to be 6 months to the next one..Part2 is already done and will launch after Part1 has had a chance to get out into the fan base and runs a good run.
My current site at Roberts-Comics.com posts new pages as they are done, no delay..those who want to see it hot off the Cintiq (Wacom) decide for themselves if it's worthwhile..many do. It gives 24-7-365 access to the archive of ALL my comics going back to 2000, and the illustrations I do for magazine centerfolds and covers, plus any other comics I decide I feel like adding to. It's usually more than just a single comic being posted up there.
And frankly I couldn't continue doing this without a fairly steady monthly base of support.
I need a monthly members site to live. I don't have the production speed of Fernando, not even close, and if I had to live on a PDF release every 6-8 months, I simply could not do this anymore, that's the blunt truth.
My ideal world would have my members' site at $14.95 USD monthly, and 25 page comics coming out at around $16.95 USD..I have always felt the prices were far too high, especially for the American market, which is in a deep depression and high unemployment and stone broke. Nobody in America can afford a website or comic book that costs almost $40 USD. You'll make the Wife-Husband murder rate skyrocket when she sees the credit card bill.

[andersbac]

I love the idea of a comic being allowed to take as many pages it needs to tell a story. If it's done in 35 pages – fine. 235 is equally fine. Set the price accordingly and if the story and art are worth it I'll be happy to pay. I'm also fond of expansions, extended versions, director's cuts, you name it, I love it. Sometimes two versions of the same comic would be nice. I'd go for the pricier one for sure, but others may not.

[ROBERTS]

I appreciate your enthusiasm Andersbac..
But we are faced with a strange new world here on the Internet, and one that changes so quickly it is impossible to know what the "right" thing is.
We have to aim for a middle ground..an average..a common denominator. In this world, all people trying to make a living have it very hard. One must choose a direction..do we build Lamborghini sports cars that sell for $200,000? Highest quality, fastest in the world, best of everything? Takes years to get one? Might sell a few per year at best?
Or do we sell mass produced Model T Fords at $500 each? It's ugly, it's black, it's dirt slow, it does nothing perfect..but it will go, turn, and stop..and EVERYONE can afford one?
Or do we try to hit some middle idea in between? Not slow and ugly and cheap, not high end expensive and NASA spaceprobe quality, but somewhere in the middle?
We're looking. Always looking.
Frankly, ALL of us with DoFantasy keep trying to bring all of you Lamborghini every time we draw..at Hundai prices. We are all doing full color, all doing high end computer graphics, all airbrushing every panel. Not because we think we'll make more money, because dammit, we're Artists, and we're just f@cking crazy. And we want OUR work to look good.
But indeed, we must find the "happy middle" on production speed, quality, and most important to the customers, Price. This is why we are in the middle of these experiments. It is YOU the Customer who will decide if this works out or not. If we see no advantages to 25 pg 1/2 price comics released more often, then we obviously will not continue doing that. If however everyone gets excited and buys them and talks it up about them, we know we got it right.
You guys are drivin the bus, not me.

[TerminalWanderer]

do we build Lamborghini sports cars that sell for $200,000? [...] Or do we sell mass produced Model T Fords at $500 each?

Most of the time, car analogies aren't all that useful

Changing the amount of pages in a comic and the price you demand for the final comic is not about quality - you said it yourself: the artist always tries to deliver quality. It's about quantity and the quantity/price ratio. These might affect quality too, but more as an afterthought than anything else.

Given Fernando's absence, his shorter Twins comic looks more like something half finished he simply could release without putting too much effort into it.

If there's a conscious effort to find the price point that generates the most revenue for everybody involved, I guess business isn't as good as it should be, or not as improving as fast as it should be. Which would be bad news for all of us.

Personally, I'd assume that after about a decade of publishing the same four or five basic story lines over and over again, it's time to get some new storytelling talent on board.

I don't know every DoF comic ever released, but afaict Fernando's "Total Control" was the first attempt at telling a story about successful business lady being blackmailed into submission. That must be one of the oldest BDSM fantasies and it took 350 comics to arrive? Compare that to about 250 comics about a officer/agent/reporter/celebrity kidnapped by some really ugly hispanic/black/russian guys. Nothing wrong with the latter, of course - but it's been a *decade* now.

Personally, I don't care much about the amount of pages - you can tell a good story in 25 or 60 pages. I'd pay 20 € for an Erenisch comic every other week, but not 13 € for yet another version of "Dofantasy BDSM story template 1" - no matter how good the artwork is.

[ROBERTS]

I don't remember any Russians, Hispanics, or Blacks in pt 1 of "Dragonsabre"...

[TerminalWanderer]

I don't remember any Russians, Hispanics, or Blacks in pt 1 of "Dragonsabre"...

I wasn't talking about your stuff - while I appreciate the quality of your work, it's simply not my cup of tea. So I'm certainly not in a position to comment on what you're doing.

I do remember some older stuff from you - that plus your recent comments that you (paraphrasing) prefer hot scenes over complicated stories makes me think you're not delivering my kind of story lines either - but in your case, that would be an artist doing 'his thing'.

My criticism was directed at Dofantasy staff. There's evidence (e.g. four basic story templates done a hundred times each...), rumours and hints from artists or DoF business partners that Dofantasy actually tries to influence what kind of stories get written by the artists. Additionally, many stories were actually written by DoF staff - like pretty much all of Templeton's comics.

I think it's time to introduce some more variety.

[ROBERTS]

As with all houses, the only people who really know what goes on inside, are those who live there.
DoFantasy has gone through a very difficult and tragic time, having lost it's main driving force and Captain of the ship, Nuria. Even now, over a year later, there is still a bit of searching going on..Nuria, love her as I did (still do), was a bit too controlling and made definite demands on what sort of comics should be created for her. Good or bad, it is what it is.
Now that things have changed and Begonia has taken the wheel, well..still sorting things out a bit i think. There's some experimentation going on. Right now is a great time to expand and indeed, explore new ideas and storylines..we have that freedom now. Begonia is quite reasonable and allows more artist initiative...BUT the buyers determine what will become of an idea here now more than the "management". Your Dollars/Euros determine what is "good" or "not". Thus, if one of us creates a comic with all the elements, good story, characters, hot sex, nasty BDSM, good art, and it sells a bazillion downloads, well, you'll see more of that in the future then. If it doesn't fly well, but yet another "typical" DoFantasy potboiler kicks sales ass...well. what do you think is gonna happen?
We are trying though. Very hard in fact.

[Thon]

Thanks for sharing Roberts. Although I agree with most of what TerminalWanderer wrights, in fairness one should point out that for many years Dof has advertised that they (Nuria I guess) was seeking story/plot writers. That being said, I don't know what kind of stories would have been accepted (other than the 'ugly bastard nap cutie and hide her away somewhere' of course ).